Wednesday, November 29, 2006

Logo Battle - Round 3

Hey Folks,

The start of the battle was exciting. Really, only one category was tight, but the Tuesday groupings have been more of a battle. I can't wait to see how these logos will play off against each other. So, the winners in the first round moving into the winners circle to the next level are:

  • Sub Zero with over 80%
  • Big Ass Truck with about 50%
  • Chad Larson Experience 46%. This was a tight race, and Brass was leading early on.
Vote once; Don't vote for teams you play with; 3 new Groupings in this post are:


Antique Throw Show - Artist: Brice Zimmerman - Open

Bowdoin Stoned Clowns - College

Bacon Eggs and Toast - Artist: Hilary Leung - Toronto, Ontario - Mixed

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Group 2

Florida - College - Women

Furious George - Vancouver, British Columbia - Open

Fakulti - Australia - Open

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Gendors - Santa Barbara, CA - Mixed

Georgia - College - Open

Fury - San Francisco, CA - Women

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Finally, you should note that my randomness is alphabetical + later additions. This is arbitrary, but I'll mix things up in the next round.


Me, Myself, and I - 3 good training partners

Hey Folks,

I always liked basketball and hockey as an athlete, because I could practice by myself. In basketball, you can shoot hoops, dribble, and pass against a wall. Hockey is similar since you can stick handle, shoot, skate, and pass against the boards. So, what can you do in Ultimate to improve your individual skills.

Pictured Above: The Capitals pulling to start a game off at UPA finals. This picture was taken by Shawn Chua.

The easiest aspect of individual training is footwork, plyometrics, and fitness work. This can be done almost anywhere. Other aspects of fitness like weight lifting and core work can also be done as an individual. Unfortunately, none of these skills involve the actual disc.

The most popular individual skill training I've heard of in Ultimate is throwing. The key is using about 20 to 50 discs to throw at a target (target could be anything really). With this many discs you can get a quick set of throws off very quickly, collect, and repeat. Golfing is an alternative, but there's more walking than throwing in this case.

That's not it for individual skills. You can also work on catching. I've used three drills to work on catching both based on the same principle. Warning, you may look kind of strange doing these.
  1. In windy conditions, you can throw the disc into the wind so that it comes back to you. As you get better at throwing in the wind you can put more distance on the throws, track the throw down, and catch either standing, running through, or jumping. The nice thing is these catches need to be read properly, and the speed of the incoming throw is quite fast.
  2. Without wind you can do a similar drill by throwing blades up in the air. For this drill I like to switch the way you catch the disc to work on catching with all sorts of grips.
  3. Finally, I find drill 2 tiring on the neck, so one adjustment is to lie on your back and throw the disc up. Then catch the disc. This one you can do in your own house for us winter folks.
The last set of personal drills which I think are good for Ultimate players are similar to the dribbling skills with basketballs. What you need to do is go through the sequence of fakes and body movements as fast as possible (almost like a kata). For example:
  • 10 fake flicks to backhands (one hand)
  • 10 fake backhands to 10 flicks (one hand)
  • 10 fake flicks to backhands (two hands)
  • 10 fake backhands to 10 flicks (two hands)
  • 10 Drop disc at shoulder level, slap body, and catch (one hand)
  • 10 Drop disc at shoulder level, slap body, and catch (weak one hand)
  • 10 Drop disc at shoulder level, slap body, and catch (two hands)
These are just some ideas to make your hands and body transitions faster. It is also useful to walk around with a disc switching grips. I've talked about this before, but I think it is one of the most important skills to have.


Tuesday, November 28, 2006

Logo Battle - Round 2

Hey Folks,

In the first groupings, the current leaders are (two days left to vote for them):

  • Sub Zero
  • Big Ass Truck
  • Chad Larson Experience
Now to the next three groups. One week of voting. Vote only once, and abstain from categories that include a team you play with or have ties with.

Group 1

Chain Lightning - Atlanta, GA - Open

Clapham - London, England - Open

Colorado - College Open

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Group 2

Condors - Santa Barbara, Ca - Open

Deliverance - Knoxville, TN - Mixed

Dis'Chords - Quebec City, Quebec - Mixed

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Group 3

DoG - Boston, MA - Open

Doublewide - Austin, TX - Open

Emu - Edmonton, Alberta - Open

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Monday, November 27, 2006

I'll Never Nail it In ... Again

In "Ultimate News Vol. 26 No. 2" there was an interesting article about spiking the disc. Well, it's my turn to put a perspective on this topic.

Pictured Above: Capitals at UPA championships.

I think the spike comes down to one simple fact. Does spiking help or hurt your team?

First, let us look to where the spike is from. The two sports that come to mind are the footballs (world and North America). In either of these sports, the spike or celebration, is an over the top celebration that is mainly (most cases) for the sake of the fans and television. I do not think, other than the bumps and hugs, that there is really any advantage for your own team over the basic momentum swing of scoring. In these sports, the opponents are similarly not affected by the celebration. In these sports, the over-the-top celebration is the norm (at the pro level).

We should also note that in both sports (at the professional level) fines are handed out for taunting opponents. At the recreational level taunting results in penalties and cards.

I guess my first question is how many times is a spike non taunting in Ultimate. My feeling is never. Sure people will say they're spiking because the point was a real challenge, or it was really big, but it all comes down to I'm spiking because I beat you. As a member of a sport where I tend to brag to other non-Ultimate types that Ultimate is amazing mainly because of the fun, respect, and self-officiated parts of the game. Spiking does not fit into any of these categories.

You might not buy my first argument about spiking, so let's take another look at the spike. Let's ask the question, does the spike benefit your team.

It is likely that a spike pumps up your team. Why does it excite the team; well basically, the team is celebrating success. But was the spike needed? I'll argue no. We also need to consider will anyone on your team be affected by the spike. I would argue yes, and the impact is embarrassment by teammates of a spiker. Just like watching your teammate make an ass of themselves arguing or making a bad call, a spike can have similar results.

My last point is, does the spike pump up the opponents? Even if it doesn't, just the risk of pumping up your opponents and losing the momentum swing should be enough risk to not spike.

I'm against spiking. I've done it once, and I regret the action. I guess it's just another perspective, but I find professional team that treat scoring like an expectation and not a great momentous occasion that only comes like a rare goal or touchdown in football.


Friday, November 24, 2006

The Achilles Knee

Hey Folks,

Here's another controversial topic that might get the commenting juices going. The topic is should women play Ultimate. The disclaimer is this topic is nothing to do with athletic skill or right to play; I believe Ultimate is the best co-ed sport, because both men and women are weapons of attack on the field. The debate is more related to the number of injuries that I see women have. This is mainly knee injuries. I just wonder if the sport is healthy for women (later topic will deal with men), or are these feeling statistically justified.

Pictured Above: Lexi Marsh (Torontula) throwing past a Queens player at CUUC 2006.

I guess the points I'm wondering about are:
  1. How likely is it for a women to get injured?
  2. What is life like after the injury?
  3. Is it worth it?
I'm going to base all my stats on one article about women and knee injuries (bad research), but this article provides both a summary of a study and some exercises to prevent knee injuries. I chose the knee, because I feel it's the Achilles heal for females playing Ultimate, and I don't supply multiple pieces of research because I'm feeling lazy.

So, with respect to question 1, the stats from the article state that of 100 000 college women, 10% of those athletes will get a knee injury in a year (men have approximately a 3% chance). I don't know how people feel about 10%, but to me those type of odds are not good for me. Even the 3% chance doesn't thrill me, and that's just for a knee injury.

As for 2, most people I've met, who have blown their knees, recover after about two years of hard work. Most don't have the same skills as before unless they injured themselves as a teenager. However, they can still play sports at about 90% of their original strength, and the remaining 10% seems to be associated with fear of re-injury. So the pain, suffering, and recovery don't seem to be major (of course I've never gone through this process).

Finally, looking at 3, is it worth it. We are talking about Ultimate and Ultimate junkies, so many of us right off the top would say, "yes, it is worth it". This all depends on how many years you've played Ultimate.

I think the best approach is to tell people what they are getting into, and as a women's coach, get them doing some strength training right off the back to prevent future disasters. Anecdotally, most of the knee injuries I know of come from indoor Ultimate.


Thursday, November 23, 2006

You go, Logo

Hey Folks,

Let's get to last weeks poll quickly since I've got a fun idea for us over the winter. Last weeks poll asked was a a chance for people to weigh in on the legitimacy of this years worlds. If we clump the yes and no categories into one:

  • 52% of you think that this past club worlds was completely legitimate.
  • 26% of you think this worlds should have an asterix beside it representing the weakness of the open division.
  • 22% of you don't care.
I'm with the 52% and great job by Japan at Worlds.

Now to the future. Yesterdays post was about something in a blog by Sub Zero, and I mentioned that I really liked the logo. Well, we have an entire winter to think about ultimate, so what better time to have an Ultimate logo off. Each week we'll pick 2 out of 4 logos to move to the next round.

If you have an Ultimate logo (University, Club, or League) that you would like to add into the challenge, just send me a picture of the logo and preferably the artist (so we can give some of these people credit). I'll randomly pick 9 logos for us to vote for (over three categories). Then we'll see how things progress.

Just some simple rules. Feel free to pick the logos based on whatever criteria you want, but try not to vote for teams you play with (abstain from the category), and don't pick teams based on how good they are. This is a logo battle. University or college logos that are the same as the standard university logo are not eligible.

Sounds exciting? Well, I've collected 60 logos (from Score-O-Matic so low quality) to start with and I've randomly chosen four for the first round of competition. Here are your choices pick 1 in each of three categories:

Group 1:
Above and Beyond - Masters
Back Hoe - Raleigh, NC - Womens
Sub Zero - Minneapolis - Open

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Group 2

Big Ass Truck - Delton, Mi - Open
Big Sky - Masters
Bad Larry - Mixed

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Group 3
Chad Larson Experience - Mixed
Brass Monkey - Mixed
Brute Squad - Boston, MA - Women

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Wednesday, November 22, 2006

Lesson from Worlds

I didn't even go, but thanks to a post by the Sub Zero guys, I think there's a nugget to be taken from Worlds. We'll have to wait until all our scouts get back, and maybe analyze the UVTV films.

Pictured Above: A big grab by Sasha Necakov in a round robin game between UofT and McGill at Uni Nats.

Sub Zero (one of my favourite ultimate logos and Mortal Kombat character) keeps an infrequent blog. The blog was pretty active over worlds.

Pictured Above: Sub Zero's logo. How do I get one of these Jerseys? I'd love to wear -12.

As I read their last post I came over these lines, "Buzz plays either very poachy man D (the quickly jump into cutting lnes and intercept under throws) or they play a zone that transitions to man late in stall counts. Both were very effective at stifling flow."

Wow, we get that for free, but I think it shows what potentially is the biggest benefit to coaches and strategy at Worlds. Worlds brings teams from all around, and each region is evolving the game of Ultimate differently since our global game infrequently crosses paths. Sure the North West thinks, and arguably, has the best Ultimate in the world. But like all dynasties, things will change over time.

My question is where will the next level of Ultimate emerge, and it doesn't have to be in North America. The strength of the U.S. college and high school system suggests that the Ultimate will remain strong for some time in North America. We, however, thought the same thing about basketball, and some of us delusional Canadians, seem to think we always won gold medals in hockey.

So, the big benefit to attending Worlds, other than meeting people from the world and celebrating a great sport, is that the next evolutions in strategy are happening right in front of your eyes.

High stall man to zone transition. I love it. Buzz Bullets are World Club Champions, and it sounds like they've got some fascinating ways of playing the game. How that plays against the Fish and Monkey giants, I don't know. We'll have to wait 2 years.


Monday, November 20, 2006

Worlds Part VI

This clubs goes to Japan. They swept the woman's medals and took the Gold in open. Canada's Fisher Price takes the Gold in Australia. That's a great finish in arguably the strongest division at the tournament.

Final standings are here. They made an up down arrows for a team beating or losing their seed. Kinda cool.

There were various successes from Canadian teams:

  • BMF finishes 8th.
  • Camelot takes 17th winning the lower division.
  • All mixed teams finish 17 or above out of 40 teams.
  • Mephisto 8th - Pretty good finish for the number 3 team from Canada.
  • Too Bad finishes 20th.
  • Rough Riders finish 5th, just outside the medals. They might have been able to pull it off if they had had a quarters in the division.
  • Edmonton scrapes out a 17th out of 18 teams.
  • In the masters Relic is 7th and Grind is 4th.
  • All the number one seeds were unseeded.
Well 2 years to National Worlds in Vancouver, and four years into the next World clubs. Where will we be by then?


Friday, November 17, 2006

Worlds - Part V + a slight rant on a rainy morning

So there's pretty well nothing to report. The only new information I have is that Roughriders are playing for 5th through 8th. Apparently, the schedule had no quarters and they had to finish top two in their pool to make the semis.

Once again, the sport of Ultimate had a tough time reaching out into the world. Maybe it's time for a revolution. As a grassroots sports, we don't suffer from the restrictions of large giant corporations that have policies to navigate. Recently, the NHL signed a contract to put their highlights on Youtube. It's time for Ultimate to one up them.

Basically, we should be uploading game footage (good or bad) to Youtube. You can upload unlimited 10min clips for free. Then with an external sight the ultimate community could rank videos so we can watch the exciting stuff.

Not to rain on UltiVillage's parade, and I think the packaged professionally done game is a great idea, but I need more information. I want to see all the games and all the highlights. I want game summaries like the sports networks do it. I want to know who the stars of the sport are other than a name that's thrown around in circles.

Unfortunately, this hope hinges around the need for money to get people to do things, and the advertising model doesn't currently work with Ultimate. Maybe there's another model out there. I don't know, but I'd like to see a little more from worlds, and the UPA championships from my computer.


Thursday, November 16, 2006

Worlds - Part IV and a Controversial Poll Dancing

We’re more than half way through worlds. A look at the four divisions shows that the tournament seedings are starting to straighten out. Canadian and Tournament Highlights:

  • Relic wins their third game. This means they will play in the 7th vs. 8th game.
  • Fatties beat Mischief (California) in the round of 16 and lost out to Brass Monkey (California) in the next round. A top 8 finish is a big accomplishment.
  • Joyride and Dischords were eliminated in the round of 16.
  • Fisher Price has moved into the quarters. They’ll meet Slow white.
  • Camelot is into the semis for the 17-28 bracket. Hopefully, they’ll win their way our of the tournament.
  • Doublewide lost to the Buzz Bullets and then Thong in the Quarters. Mephisto Lost to Buzz Bullets in the quarters. The only North American team left in the Open division in Sub Zero.
  • Roughriders finish off in power pool play 2-2. Edmonton Ladies are having a rough run at things and are 0-4 in their pool.

Since it is poll Thursday, we need to review last weeks polls and look at a new, controversial poll this week.

Last week I asked about whether or not it is worth going to worlds, and how many chances you think you will have in your ultimate career.
  • Tied for first; 45% of you believe you have 2 or 3 to 5 more worlds.
  • 40% of you think it is worth going to worlds. 32% would go depending on where worlds is, and 24% of you care if it is club worlds or nation worlds (I assume nation worlds is the more prestigious).
As for the poll of the week, I was reading this blog, and I felt the topic was a good one for debate. I, myself, obviously am biased, and you can see my comments on the blog. However, I will keep my additional opinions to myself for another week, and open the floor to the people.

The poll question is: Should the World Clubs open division have an asterix beside it since the competition is watered down (general opinion).
  • Strong Yes
  • Yes
  • Don’t Care
  • No
  • Strong No
Feel free to add your views to either this blog or the original blog where the topic was brought up.

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Wednesday, November 15, 2006

Worlds - Part III

Hey Folks,

If you want some insider information from people at the tournament, Noah Goldstein, from BMF has a blog up. I also received an e-mail from another Fatty, Stephen Canning, and it sounds like BMF cracked the top 16 after beating a highly ranked Japan side. Height appeared to be a factor.

In other news:

  • In the coed it appears that Joyride and Camelot won't be moving to the top 16 with 0-4 powerpool records. Team Fisher Price is Canada's best chance of a medal. I expect they'll face the likes of Bad Larry and Slow White.
  • Mephisto went 1-3 in the power pool. I'm guessing they'll play a crossover game to try and get into the quarters.
  • Thong (Australia), Buzz Bullets (Japan), and Double Wide (Texas) are the only undefeated teams in the Open division. The later two playoff next.
  • Roughriders lost their first game to a team called Mud (Japan). They've been moved into a power pool of sorts (two pools of 6 from three pools of 6).
  • I've been ignoring, Relic (Calgary), in the Master's Division. They're currently 2-5 in one giant pool of 11. They'll need one or two more wins to crack into the top 8.
Canada still has teams playing for titles in all divisions.


Tuesday, November 14, 2006

Worlds - Part II

Here's the highlights:

  • In the coed division, other than Team Fisher Price, things are looking bad. Most of the teams are 0-2 after the remix into what I'm guessing are power pools.
  • In the open division, Mephisto is having a tougher time in the power pools after starting the tournament 4-0; they're 0-2 in the power pool.
  • Other than Doublewide, the North American teams aren't performing too well.
  • Too Bad got their first win in the tournament.
  • In the women's division, Roughriders win their poll 5-0. The Edmonton ladies had a much rougher time with a 1-4 record.
Looks like things are shaping up.


Monday, November 13, 2006


So I've received a few e-mails from various people at worlds, and so far it seems like the World Ultimate Club Championships is amazing.

Let's take a quick sample of some results:

  • In the co-ed division, all the Canadian teams are 3-0 or 2-1. That's a good start, but this is the biggest division, so it'll be tough to move far into the tournament.
  • In the open division, Thong, from Australia beat Sub Zero 15-10.
  • Mephisto is 4-0 with a win over Clapham 14-13. Nice job boys. That's a big win for Montreal.
  • In the Women's, Roughriders are 3-0 and Edmonton women are 1-2.
  • Ozone, from Atlanta, got beat by a Japanese team, Uno.
It looks like things will be heating up over the week. I'll keep you posted on any interesting results I find during the week, and I'll pass on any stories I get from participants.


Friday, November 10, 2006

Who Do You See?

One of the skills for a thrower is learning to both watch upfield and setup your throws. This involves the challenging skill of faking out your opponent without watching how they move so you can watch upfield.

Pictured Above: Torontula Women's team going up in a scrum with Queen's.

A popular drill that we use to practice this skill is three man ("trois hommes"). What the coach and player have to watch for is that when you are faking out your man, you are focusing on the person you are throwing to and not the person who is marking you.

Sounds simple, but this skill will take a while to develop, and it's tricky not to want to look at the person you are trying to fake out. However, as you make your fakes, one element of selling a fake is looking upfield. The second element is really developing peripheral vision and instincts.

In basketball, one way to improve your peripheral vision was to dribble staring in a direction and have a person off to one side wave their hand, wave coloured flags, or hold a certain number of fingers up. The player would need to identify what happened using only their peripheral vision. As you can guess the respective order of peripheral vision challenge is movement, colour, and finally, details. This can be easily modified for ultimate during a simple throw back and forth.

To improve your instinct, it is a simple matter of faking during drills and games. I find that players, including myself, develop faking patterns that they regularly go to when they need to get a throw off (defensive point that could be exploited). Watching veterans who throw similar to you may provide faking sequences that would have value to yourself.

A good thrower needs vision and skill to get the throw off. Three man provides a great medium to practice these skills if executed correctly.


Thursday, November 09, 2006

Poll Thursday - World class Ultimate

Hey Folks,

Last weeks poll started us off on an exploration of off-season training. Today we'll review the results, and go back Ultimate polls with respect to the World Clubs coming up.

So last week, I wanted to know how long people felt they should wait until getting into the new season of off-season training. Twenty-seven people replied to the poll and the results were:

  1. 48% of people (13 people) said that 1 or 2 weeks was all before getting into the swing of the things.
  2. 30% of people (8 votes) felt that January was a good time to get back into the swing of things.
  3. 22% of people (6 votes) started training right away.
  4. 0% of people who responded don't train in the off-season.
Well, it's good to see that everyone feels that training is relevant. The majority feels that training should be continued almost right after the season ends. It makes sense to lighten up and recover your body, but why waste your fitness level.

This weeks poll is about Worlds. My roommate, Peyton Leung, is off to Australia to compete along with a number of people other people from Toronto. Montreal, Vancouver, and Edmonton are also sending teams from Canada in what should be an experience of a lifetime. I would be there too, if things had of worked out better, but alas, I will watch another major tournament virtually.

The questions are:
  1. How many chances do you have going to a world Ultimate event?
  2. Is it worth going to Worlds?
Responses to 1 are:
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3-5
  • 6-10
  • 10+
Responses to 2 are:
  • Yes
  • No
  • Depends on where it is
  • Depends if it's World clubs or World national

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Wednesday, November 08, 2006

Time to get on the same page

Hey Folks,

This is a pretty simple post about the value of the teams playbook and what should be included in that book. We will start out with the why and then go into the what.

Pictured Above: Torontula and McGill boys going up on mass. The disc held in the air and drifted over to a McGill player outside the scrum who caught the disc.

The playbook exists in pretty well all team sports. I've seen them in basketball, football, hockey, and volleyball. The main idea is that the playbook provides information about what will happen so that more of the time at practice can be served to executing actions as opposed to explaining them.

Not only does the playbook provide explanations about actions on the field, it is also a point to express the philosophy behind many of the systems. This provides reason why systems are used and provides points of how to argue why such and such a system is correct and why it is bad.

So what belongs in the teams playbook. I, recently, had the opportunity to have a brief look at the University of Westerns Football teams playbook. The book was actually about 200 pages. Sections that I saw and remember:
  • Plays
  • Season Workouts
  • Offseason Workouts
  • Team Logistics
  • Team History
The playbooks I've created for Ultimate don't include all of these sections. My latest playbook created for the University of Toronto open team (torontula) includes:
  • Basic Skills Needed
  • Philosophy for coach, team, offense, and defense
  • Offensive plays
  • Defensive sets including zones
  • Drills
This is a base book that I find serves the purpose of providing the minimum amount of information so that everyone has a good base to start from.

Finally, the last thing we recently tried with the playbook was releasing it after the second day of tryouts. There are two reasons for this were: one, this would make people read the book and memorize so they wouldn't look the fool at tryouts, and two, early release would get everyone on the same page.

You've got to have a playbook. In the future I'll discuss some of the finer points o f the playbook


Monday, November 06, 2006

When to Drive, When to Bite, When to Flip

Hey Folks,

After discussing throws, it's time to look at the second half of the equation - the catch. In this post we're going to talk about what I call the wheel of catches.

Pictured Above: Jeremy Shaki just misses a foot block on Scotty Nichols throw to Inian Moorthy. This was taken at the Canadian University Ultimate Championships.

The concept is pretty simple, but even intermediate/high level players have never been taught the proper (preferred) hand position to catch a disc. In all cases, these catches are when the disc is coming directly towards you and you are cutting parallel to the path of the disc. Their are adjustments for different angles of approach and body position. This, hopefully, will start you thinking about practicing different positions to improve your catching.

To demonstrate how to catch, I like to hold a disc and move it around my body starting from above my head to below my knees and then proceeding in a circle. Let's proceed through each stage.

Above Head

We start with what I would call a steering wheel catch. Essentially anything above the head is best caught with two hands (unless an extended reach is needed) where the hand is in a position to grip like climbing a ladder. This catch position exists from above your head to just above your shoulder. To find the position for yourself, move your arms down until the wrist is starting to stretch to catch the disc. If your wrist needs to be actively stretched, then you are in a high risk drop spot, and you should be switching your catch.


The core part of the body is mostly a "pancake" or "alligator" catch where both hands clap together with one hand on top and one hand on the bottom. When in the core area, miss timing this catch is not a high risk since your body will stop the disc. Many people drop the disc using this catch when the hands don't overlap properly on completion of the clap, and instead are misaligned and cause tortion.

Another option with the core is to use a reverse steering wheel (imagine holding the bottom of the steering wheel with palms facing up). This catch can be raised as high the shoulder, but is difficult to stretch out for a grab without putting considerable effort to properly adjust the wrist.

Lower body

As we proceed down the body, we move into reverse steering wheel catches since the pancake is hard to adjust with the wrists. Getting very low, there is a necessity to move from two hands to a one hand reach, or preferably, a knee slide catch or layout. Both knee slide and layout are advanced skills that are hard to learn and teach, but are great options to successfully catch low throws.

Circling the outside

When the disc is away from the core, then in most cases the catch needs to be made with one hand in a steering or reverse steering grip. The shoulder tends to be the point at which you switch between the two catches. Above the shoulder is a steering wheel catch, and below the shoulder is a reverse steering wheel catch.

There is also an option to bring the second arm across in some cases to make a hybrid steering wheel and pancake catch.

As a player, it is important to develop all these catches, and probably more important to be able to quickly choose the proper catching position of the arms. Also, it is important to analyze where your switch points are. These are the points where one catch is preferable to another.